Talk:Deus ex machina

Use of Gendered Pronouns

Hey, I'm new to editing on this site as opposed to simply reading it, so sorry if I missed anything or went about this the wrong way, and also sorry that I end up getting so verbose in this entry, but I changed an instance of the pronoun "himself" to "themself", since the pronoun refers to a hypothetical writer whose gender is left unspecified. However, since the phrase in which this pronoun appeared was in quotation marks, and since there was no superscript hyperlinked number enclosed in square brackets indicating that the phrase was a verbatim quote from one of this article's sources, I am unsure whether the quotation marks are supposed to convey that the phrase was indeed intended to be a verbatim quote, or that the phrase expresses an opinion which is included for the sake of making the reader aware that such opinions exist rather than making the article itself explicitly express said opinion to the reader. If the quotation marks are in fact supposed to convey that their contents are a verbatim quote, then I suggest that either the source of the quote be cited and the word "themself" be enclosed in square brackets, or that the quotation marks be removed for the time being. If the quotation marks are there for the other reason I hypothesised above, then I believe that the article is acceptable as-is. AriaLyric (talk) 21:29, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Welcome to WP, AriaLyric! I see that somebody has already undone your edit before I could, and although it wasn't me who undid your edit perhaps I could explain why I would. Basically, "themself" isn't really a proper word. It mixes them, which is plural, with self, which is singular. While it's becoming more commonly used it should be avoided in formal written English. In the English language it's perfectly normal to say "himself" when describing somebody of indefinite and irrelevant gender. Don't worry, this has no bearing on the subjugation of women. Nobody is being oppressed by the fact that the writer "painted himself into a corner", rather than herself. I believe that the quotation marks are there to signify that the painting is done only figuratively or metaphorically. It's a turn of phrase. nagualdesign 02:44, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

'Is "themself" a word or not?' That's the wrong question. "An electron has mass" is a comment that is true or false about electrons, which humans did not invent and cannot control. We cannot re-engineer subatomic particles to our liking. But statments about language are not like this. We INVENT language. We do not DISCOVER the properties of a language by analysis in a laboratory. Since languges are DEVISED by humans, we can RE-DEVISE them at will. And we SHOULD do so, when there are moral stakes. It raises the question "Does someone who'll write things that sneak in a tacit assumption (because were it not snuck in tacitly but, rather, overtly declared, its immorality would be too obvious) that the language in question is a natural object which we can't alter to suit our aims hiding some immoral purpose like authoritarianism?"

Since WE MAKE language (and should exercise moral responsibility in doing so) the correct question can't possibly be "IS 'themself' a word?". The correct question must be "Do we DESIRE for 'themself' to be a word so that we can avoid gender-partiality?" The answer to that question is "yes". Language is not something OUTSIDE of ourselves that we observe and describe without choice. Language is what we CHOOSE it to be, what me MAKE it to be, and there's a reason NOT to make "him" serve as the gender-neutral singular pronoun. The very idea of something NOT being correct language as a fact of nature is a pretext for a hidden agenda of authoritarianism and social conformity. The truth is that nothing is or is not correct language unless we say so, just as there is no INHERENTLY correct side of the road to drive upon as long as drivers on the same road agree about it.

Futhermore, I've read somewhere that some centuries back "them" WAS in fact both the singular and plural pronoun. If that's not possible, please explain "you". It's both singular and plural. I'm not going to bother to track down the source that said that long ago "them" was a singular pronoun. One reason is that I have other things pressing on my time now. Another reason is that it shouldn't be necessary. Even if that source can't be found or was incorrect, it shouldn't matter. We have a reason to start using something other than "him" as a singular pronoun when gender is uknown AND ESPECIALLY WHEN gender is known but is simply not relevant to the discussion. Unlike subatomic particles, the laws that govern language belong to those who use language. Therefore those laws don't deserve to be held as sacrosanct (and certainly not as having a ranking higher than something like Equality). Swedish drivers used to drive on the British side of the road. Now they drive on the American side. The fact that they had always driven on the British side before was simply no argument against the change. What is best now? Should be change things to align with what is best NOW? The answer is yes. Conventions must not be carved in stone. They are ours to change as we see fit. And avoiding change for the sake of avoiding change isn't an example of someone arguing for what they think is best based on the purposes that language should serve. They're just being traditionalist, rather than arguing in good faith about how language works.

(Take for instance the rule against split infinitives. I am going to incessantly split as many infinitives as I can before I die. The splitting of infinitives doesn't undermine any clarity in what is said, and in fact refusing to ever split them can result in ambiguity: "I am running quickly to deliver medicine" is ambiguous in a world without split infinitives: is the person RUNNING quickly, or trying to mercifully DELIVER quickly? The rule against splitting infinitives was invented by pompous grammarians of the 18th or 19th century ONLY because they wanted to show the world that they knew that in many other languages the infinitive is a single word and thus can't be split. They were not concerned with language acquiring some ambiguity if rules were constructed a certain way. Their only concern was being "correct" No. Wrong. Their only concern was BEING SEEN to be correct.)

I've heard that "he not working" isn't correct language. Well, it absolutely is. The vast, no, not "vast" but "overwhelmingly vast", majority of languages in the world allow negatives without helping-verbs. English is very alone in that respect. French and Spanish people can say "he not working" without the waste of an "is". There is no valid and logical reason for requiring the "is". The other languages where it is not required (sorry, I meant "it not required") whose countries, trading-systems, and governments run perfectly well without helping-verbs in negatives prove beyond any doubt at all, I mean just SHATTER any argument to the contrary, that the "is" in "he is not working" is just plain BAD. Just wait 200 years. By that time, at least everyone in the U.S.A. will be saying things like "We not having any of this business of freezing language as it is rather than changing it to fit our purposes!"

Finally, the salutation "Welcome to WP, AriaLyric!" followed by the dismissal of all of AriaLyric's concerns as the anxieties of some naif who doesn't know better and only needs to be informed of her error by you is patronizing and disingenuous, offensively so. I didn't begin my post "Hello, nagualdesign, and I hope all is well with you" as if you are a friend because that's not who I am. I am honest. I DO hope all is well so that you live long enough to see your notions discredited by the world at large. But I don't have enough contempt for honesty, for myself, or even for you to pretend that I like you when I don't. Doing so would only undermined my credibility, my earnestness. I think you have ideas which, when examined under the brightest of lights, are revealed to be immoral (which is why you do some things to keep the lights dim, like suggesting that "themself" either is or is not a word as if that were a law of nature and not subject to human designs. I think (subject to correction by acquisition of future evidence) you're a bad person. I'm not going to hide it, as you would, behind an offensive veneer of politness. What would have been wrong with typing "Hello, AriaLyric, you're so wrong and here's why:" or "AriaLyric, you ignorant prole", since that is what you really think? They're probably an adult who can take it when they know they're right, as is the case here.74.64.104.99 (talk) 11:09, 15 March 2020 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

@74.64.104.99 oh for fucks sake. 146.200.132.29 (talk) 07:47, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Question about Deism

I didn't know until today that "Deus Ex Machina" means "god FROM the machine". I guess I should've caught the "ex", but I didn't. What is the word for a god who has made the universe as a clockwork automaton? The goal of making an automaton is that it require no intervention once it has been created, wound up, and set to running, but will do what it is supposed to do guided ONLY by the clockwork driving it. If you believe in that kind of god, you believe it is a kind of blasphemy to say that God intervenes. If the Universe that God made was perfect from the git-go, everything that was ever going to happen was willed by that God into the Big Bang (or similar event) at the moment timulled was pe began. God would need to fix something only if God's design wasn't perfect. So what is the name for this conception of a god (the Deist god, the God AS Machine, not God FROM Machine) and would you consider posting a disambiguation-link at the top if the phrase for that is sufficiently similar to "Deus Ex Machina"?74.64.104.99 (talk) 11:09, 15 March 2020 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

It's called that because in the old Greek theatre they had a contraption called a roll-out, in which a god was brought out to the stage. The Latin word does not necessarily mean a machine with working parts, Virgil uses it of the Trojan horse. Suggest you read Aristotle's Poetics, tr. Butcher. It is nothing to do with the universe! Esedowns (talk) 22:15, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Oliver - reference to DEM might be incorrect

In "Oliver Twist," the fact that Rose is his aunt is central to the plot -- not a last-minute addition to resolve a problem. His grandfather recognizes early that there is something familiar about Oliver's appearance. The story is not about a poor boy who gets lucky, but of a wronged boy who is restored to his rightful place. A large portion of the story is devoted to the machinations of the other heir who seeks to deny Oliver of his inheritance. The fact that Rose is his aunt is central to the plot and without that fact, major portions of the book would need to be removed entirely. Dickens has a habit of revealing such hidden facts until the end of the story, but I don't think this is what the DEM phrase is meant to convey.2600:1700:51B3:5630:D92B:8D1D:A02:9729 (talk) 04:29, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

"At the end, Heracles shows up"

I can't decide if I like the informal tone of "At the end, Heracles shows up" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgrrr (talk • contribs) 22:25, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

"Black box (fiction)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Black box (fiction) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 16 § Black box (fiction) until a consensus is reached. cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 20:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)